Comments for Postmillennialism http://postmillennialism.com Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:09:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 Comment on Postmillennialism, Psalm 2, and “the Nations” by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. http://postmillennialism.com/2012/02/postmillennialism-psalm-2-and-the-nations/#comment-588 Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:09:49 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=674#comment-588 You make a good devil! Ha! I would admit upfront that the already/not yet paradigm could apply here. But I don't believe it does. I am afraid that it often used as a magic wand to banish postmillennialists from eschatological debates. But here is why I don't believe that will trip up the postmillennial interpretation. (Keep in mind: postmillennialism is not built on nor dependent upon this text.) According to the psalm all that the enthroned Messiah need do is “ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession” (v 8). The Lord promises his Messiah the “nations” (not just one nation, Israel) and “the ends of the earth” (not just one region, Palestine) as his permanent ‘possession” (v 8). Though they will resist him (vv 2:1–3), he will break them in his dominion (v 9). So the question arises: Did the Messiah ask of the Father "the nations as his inheritance"? Surely he did. Otherwise, why would he say "If I am lifted up I will draw all men to myself"? "The kingdom will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruit thereof"? "The Son of Man was not sent into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him should be saved"? All of these concepts fit perfectly with the great commission where he claims all authority, promises to be with his people to the end, and commands them to disciple all the nations. Remarkably, this securing of “the nations” in Psalm 2 is the very task the Messiah assigns to his followers in the Great Commission: “Go and make disciples of all nations” (Mt 28:19a). He will rule over them with his rod and dash in pieces those who refuse to submit (Ps 2:9). This he does through his mighty word and under his controlling providence (Heb 1:3, 8–13; e.g., Mt 21:43–44). Because of this ultimate hope, the raging nations receive warning: “Therefore, you kings, be wise; / be warned, you rulers of the earth. / Serve the LORD with fear / and rejoice with trembling. / Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, / for his wrath can flare up in a moment. / Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Ps 2:10–12). You make a good devil! Ha! I would admit upfront that the already/not yet paradigm could apply here. But I don’t believe it does. I am afraid that it often used as a magic wand to banish postmillennialists from eschatological debates. But here is why I don’t believe that will trip up the postmillennial interpretation. (Keep in mind: postmillennialism is not built on nor dependent upon this text.)

According to the psalm all that the enthroned Messiah need do is “ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession” (v 8). The Lord promises his Messiah the “nations” (not just one nation, Israel) and “the ends of the earth” (not just one region, Palestine) as his permanent ‘possession” (v 8). Though they will resist him (vv 2:1–3), he will break them in his dominion (v 9).

So the question arises: Did the Messiah ask of the Father “the nations as his inheritance”? Surely he did. Otherwise, why would he say “If I am lifted up I will draw all men to myself”? “The kingdom will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruit thereof”? “The Son of Man was not sent into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him should be saved”? All of these concepts fit perfectly with the great commission where he claims all authority, promises to be with his people to the end, and commands them to disciple all the nations.

Remarkably, this securing of “the nations” in Psalm 2 is the very task the Messiah assigns to his followers in the Great Commission: “Go and make disciples of all nations” (Mt 28:19a). He will rule over them with his rod and dash in pieces those who refuse to submit (Ps 2:9). This he does through his mighty word and under his controlling providence (Heb 1:3, 8–13; e.g., Mt 21:43–44). Because of this ultimate hope, the raging nations receive warning: “Therefore, you kings, be wise; / be warned, you rulers of the earth. / Serve the LORD with fear / and rejoice with trembling. / Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, / for his wrath can flare up in a moment. / Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Ps 2:10–12).

]]> Comment on Postmillennialism, Psalm 2, and “the Nations” by j. bennett http://postmillennialism.com/2012/02/postmillennialism-psalm-2-and-the-nations/#comment-580 j. bennett Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:33:02 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=674#comment-580 Devil's advocate question: how do we know this is not speaking in an 'already/not yet' sort of way? How do we know that this isn't a combining of the first and second comings of Christ in the sense that yes Christ has come and He is spreading His kingdom, but this will not be fulfilled until the eternal state? Thanks! j Devil’s advocate question: how do we know this is not speaking in an ‘already/not yet’ sort of way? How do we know that this isn’t a combining of the first and second comings of Christ in the sense that yes Christ has come and He is spreading His kingdom, but this will not be fulfilled until the eternal state?

Thanks!

j

]]> Comment on Acts 24:15 and the Alleged Nearness of the Resurrection by tim cruz http://postmillennialism.com/2012/02/acts-2415-and-the-alleged-nearness-of-the-resurrection/#comment-579 tim cruz Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:52:35 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=622#comment-579 Thanks Sam for the question, I "know" I was once blind, but now I see. I know there are many others with the same story as mine ("Jesus loving scholars") though I am not a scholar. Rome to this day still thinks it has the "correct interpretation " of the Bible. Many of my brothers in Jesus think they have the "correct interpretation". We've got to stick to the main and plain things, Israel is its subject, Christ is its fulfillment, audience relevance, context, difficult in light of clear, and scripture interprets itself. Everyone agrees to these things, but we are all not as faithful to these things as we should be. I think this is why there is so many "correct interpretations" Again Thanks. Thanks Sam for the question, I “know” I was once blind, but now I see. I know there are many others with the same story as mine (“Jesus loving scholars”) though I am not a scholar. Rome to this day still thinks it has the “correct interpretation ” of the Bible. Many of my brothers in Jesus think they have the “correct interpretation”. We’ve got to stick to the main and plain things, Israel is its subject, Christ is its fulfillment, audience relevance, context, difficult in light of clear, and scripture interprets itself. Everyone agrees to these things, but we are all not as faithful to these things as we should be. I think this is why there is so many “correct interpretations” Again Thanks.

]]> Comment on Paul, the Jews, and the Postmillennial Hope by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. http://postmillennialism.com/2012/02/paul-the-jews-and-the-postmillennial-hope/#comment-577 Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:01:36 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=590#comment-577 As a postmillennialist I believe Israel as a "race" will turn to Christ and be converted at some time in the future. However, I do not believe that Israel as a political nation will ever have ascendency or receive special favor. She must be converted just like any other people group. As a postmillennialist I believe Israel as a “race” will turn to Christ and be converted at some time in the future. However, I do not believe that Israel as a political nation will ever have ascendency or receive special favor. She must be converted just like any other people group.

]]> Comment on Acts 24:15 and the Alleged Nearness of the Resurrection by Sam http://postmillennialism.com/2012/02/acts-2415-and-the-alleged-nearness-of-the-resurrection/#comment-572 Sam Sat, 18 Feb 2012 07:41:46 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=622#comment-572 Tim, I understand your concern, but you appear to lump all "scholars" together. There are liberal scholars, atheistic scholars, and conservative, Bible believing, Jesus loving scholars. Stick with the latter. Second, what separates YOU from the rest of the screwed up crowds that apparently cannot read or understand the Bible? Do you know how many times the "be a Berean" line is used by virtually every view that claims that this is "all" that they are doing? Your problem, therefore, appears to stem from a much more deeper question: how do we know that we know that we have the "correct interpretation" of "what the Bible says"? Tim, I understand your concern, but you appear to lump all “scholars” together. There are liberal scholars, atheistic scholars, and conservative, Bible believing, Jesus loving scholars. Stick with the latter.

Second, what separates YOU from the rest of the screwed up crowds that apparently cannot read or understand the Bible? Do you know how many times the “be a Berean” line is used by virtually every view that claims that this is “all” that they are doing?

Your problem, therefore, appears to stem from a much more deeper question: how do we know that we know that we have the “correct interpretation” of “what the Bible says”?

]]> Comment on Paul, the Jews, and the Postmillennial Hope by Ken Palmer http://postmillennialism.com/2012/02/paul-the-jews-and-the-postmillennial-hope/#comment-570 Ken Palmer Fri, 17 Feb 2012 18:32:45 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=590#comment-570 Hi Dr. Gentry, I have come to understand that this is not in essence a prophecy, but rather a hope in Paul, as he draws from several OT excerpts (Isa 27:9; Isa 59:17-18, 20-21; Isaiah 60:10 -[Habakkuk - throughout the book of Romans among many other as you already know]) that have a two fold outcome for Israel, depending on their behavior. I agree with Andrew Perriman on this as he and I both believe this is a presupposition based on verse Rom 11:23, in that "‘if they do not persist in their unbelief" being the big if, whether they, as a people and nation, are restored. What do you think? Thanks for your time. Hi Dr. Gentry,

I have come to understand that this is not in essence a prophecy, but rather a hope in Paul, as he draws from several OT excerpts (Isa 27:9; Isa 59:17-18, 20-21; Isaiah 60:10 -[Habakkuk - throughout the book of Romans among many other as you already know]) that have a two fold outcome for Israel, depending on their behavior. I agree with Andrew Perriman on this as he and I both believe this is a presupposition based on verse Rom 11:23, in that “‘if they do not persist in their unbelief” being the big if, whether they, as a people and nation, are restored. What do you think?

Thanks for your time.

]]> Comment on Revelation’s Early Date and Expected Influence by tim cruz http://postmillennialism.com/2012/02/a-practical-problem-for-revelation%e2%80%99s-early-date/#comment-569 tim cruz Fri, 17 Feb 2012 16:58:44 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=649#comment-569 In looking for a physical subduing of the literal nations-world, is that not where 1st century Irsael was mistaken ? A literal earthly super kingdom? Even though the world has its China's,Iran's, all the country's of the world for that matter; God's goal in history has been fulfilled in Christ, His supper Kingdom is a present reality everywhere, He has done it, He has established His eternal kingdom, God is with us, and we are His temple,He is in our presence, or are we to wait for His physical bodily presence with each of us in the unknown future sometime? thanks. In looking for a physical subduing of the literal nations-world, is that not where 1st century Irsael was mistaken ? A literal earthly super kingdom? Even though the world has its China’s,Iran’s, all the country’s of the world for that matter; God’s goal in history has been fulfilled in Christ, His supper Kingdom is a present reality everywhere, He has done it, He has established His eternal kingdom, God is with us, and we are His temple,He is in our presence, or are we to wait for His physical bodily presence with each of us in the unknown future sometime? thanks.

]]> Comment on Summary Graphs of Millennial Views by Don http://postmillennialism.com/2012/01/summary-graphs-of-millennial-views/#comment-567 Don Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:05:36 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=356#comment-567 I was thinking about this the other day. If the Preterists are right and Christs kingdom was inaugurated in 70 A.D., then what if the millenium was a literal 1000 years? When would it have ended? Well, a Jewish year has 360 days and so if you add 1000 years of 360 days each and do all the math, the last year of this kingdom would have been 1054 A.D which just happened to be the exact year of the Great Schism, when the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church split in half. Prior to this event Christendom extended all the way from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Perhaps we live in the time when Satan has been loosed but eventually the Gospel will triumph and Christ will return. Let me know your thoughts on this. I was thinking about this the other day. If the Preterists are right and Christs kingdom was inaugurated in 70 A.D., then what if the millenium was a literal 1000 years? When would it have ended? Well, a Jewish year has 360 days and so if you add 1000 years of 360 days each and do all the math, the last year of this kingdom would have been 1054 A.D which just happened to be the exact year of the Great Schism, when the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church split in half. Prior to this event Christendom extended all the way from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Perhaps we live in the time when Satan has been loosed but eventually the Gospel will triumph and Christ will return. Let me know your thoughts on this.

]]> Comment on Summary Graphs of Millennial Views by Daniel Jansky http://postmillennialism.com/2012/01/summary-graphs-of-millennial-views/#comment-565 Daniel Jansky Thu, 16 Feb 2012 20:07:08 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=356#comment-565 Thank you so much. I will look into it. Thank you so much. I will look into it.

]]> Comment on Acts 24:15 and the Alleged Nearness of the Resurrection by tim cruz http://postmillennialism.com/2012/02/acts-2415-and-the-alleged-nearness-of-the-resurrection/#comment-564 tim cruz Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:18:03 +0000 http://postmillennialism.com/?p=622#comment-564 Jason, thanks for your response, I'm trying to read the bible the same way that led me from arminianism / Dispensationalism to Calvinism.The plain reading of the text, focusing on the main and plain things.I have nothing to protect,( doctrinal position), I am trying to be most concerned with what scripture is saying, but am amazed with our presuppositions,expectations, traditions.Be like the Berans we're told, then we are told," well the church never has taught this",but it is in the plain reading of the text,do I go with a church's teaching or scripture i.e. dispensationalism, open theism, modalism,etc. Scholars are all over the place, they can't even agree among them selves (atheists, liberals, premil.,amil., postmil., pretrib., reformed,pca.,opc., etc., etc.,etc ) and I'm told they are all right.Whats a guy to do, but check scripture and see who comes closest, to the plain reading of the text, context,etc.That's all I want to do.At the time of the reformation as you well know I'm sure, forgive my speech but the poop hit the fan theologically speaking,all the divergent views that came out, is looking like whats going on now with preterism.And I do not want to trow the baby out with the bath water,preteristic interpretation being the baby. thanks for your time, and what you posted! Jason, thanks for your response, I’m trying to read the bible the same way that led me from arminianism / Dispensationalism to Calvinism.The plain reading of the text, focusing on the main and plain things.I have nothing to protect,( doctrinal position), I am trying to be most concerned with what scripture is saying, but am amazed with our presuppositions,expectations, traditions.Be like the Berans we’re told, then we are told,” well the church never has taught this”,but it is in the plain reading of the text,do I go with a church’s teaching or scripture i.e. dispensationalism, open theism, modalism,etc. Scholars are all over the place, they can’t even agree among them selves (atheists, liberals, premil.,amil., postmil., pretrib., reformed,pca.,opc., etc., etc.,etc ) and I’m told they are all right.Whats a guy to do, but check scripture and see who comes closest, to the plain reading of the text, context,etc.That’s all I want to do.At the time of the reformation as you well know I’m sure, forgive my speech but the poop hit the fan theologically speaking,all the divergent views that came out, is looking like whats going on now with preterism.And I do not want to trow the baby out with the bath water,preteristic interpretation being the baby. thanks for your time, and what you posted!

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